For the majority of folk out there, footwear choices amount to two brand conglomerates. You’ve got your Nike (and Converse) choice or the Adidas/RBK option. Retros, new models, cheapos for Target, Sears and Wal-mart. The big three (now really just two) cover all price points and retail outlets.
For the “adventurous,” footwear choices often amount to the same two brand conglomerates. Plus, a small collection of VANS. Traveling the boutique rout, it is easy to forget the breadth and scope of the big two and focus on the bells and whistles packaging devised to attract “early adaptors” and “cool guys.” Nothing wrong with these affinities (I have a closet full of nikes, adidas and vans), but there is more to life than a swoosh, three stripes and a vector.
One brand offering respite from the big boys is Pointer. Founded in 2004, Pointer offers simple, clean and well-conceived footwear. They are inspired by basic life activities. Childhood memory. Skating. Breakfast. Ian Rush. And, unfortunately, trips to White Heart Lane.
Gareth Skewis is one of the minds behind Pointer (and the one who, regretfully, takes trips to White Heart Lane). He graciously allowed me to pick his brain about the brand, footwear and the need for ancillary product. We exchanged emails for roughly a week, learned of some personal commonalities and ended up producing what I believe is an interesting read. Gareth, presumably, was at his office in London, while I was at mine, in Philadelphia. --Nick Schonberger
I'd like to begin with your definition of "casual" footwear.
Gareth: First off I can’t speak for anyone else with this answer but I guess it would be a mixture of Dress shoes and Sports footwear. Kind of like a Tuxedo Tee Shirt, smart but casual. Or like a Mullet, business at the front, party at the back. No but really I would say it is a mix of dress shoes and sportswear, something in between. If we are talking about the 1980s casuals movement then that is a whole different ball game.
What are your influences in footwear, the styles or brands that have driven you or caught your eye over the years?
Gareth: Wow where to begin; there have been so many. I guess from about the age of 12 or maybe even younger I was obsessed with shoes. The real start I guess was football boots at 10 or 11. In Johannesburg you could not really buy many of the larger sports wear brands due to the political situation and I was obsessed with the Nike football boots Ian Rush played in, we are talking late 80's when Liverpool were just destroying everyone in their path.
Then I found skateboarding and that opened my eyes to a world of Airwalk 540's, Distorters, Enigmas and so on. Vision Streetwear, Vans Full Cabs and the list goes on. I had a pair of Desert Camo Chuck Taylor’s that the light strips of the camo glowed in the dark. 4 years on from that the 92 Olympics happened and I watched the USA "Dream Team" play I really fell in love with Nike Flights the early Jordan’s and so on. But at the same time still being obsessed with Matt Henley and I guess Doctor Martins and the list goes on.
So when late '93 rolls around I am now obsessed with the Vans Lampins, Half Cabs, Adidas Campus. Brit Pop starts to happen and I see Oasis rocking rocking Wallabies - I was in love and the first single was pretty good too. That kind of introduced me to something that was not Dr Martins and not Sportswear. So I guess referring to your first question that is what I would class "Casual" footwear.
Then things spiraled pretty quickly out of control as far as buying footwear went, mid 90's skate shoes, Air Force Ones, Clarks, Boat shoes (living in New Jersey and wearing Boat shoes in the mid 90's, not a good way to meet girls). I guess it really got a bit out of control.
Once I was back in the UK in 2000 I got really into dead stock running shoes, Vans Eras and Authentic and Nike Blazers but I was still obsessed. But was still obsessed with Clarks Originals and Padmore and Barnes. Then say 2004 just as I was leaving Silas I got really into Trickers and Churches, but was still obsessed with the Sportswear stuff. I guess a pretty odd combo but that was how it went.
I think the notion of simple often gets reduced to an idea that a product is low tech. What are some of the technical concerns that are important for you at Pointer?
That is often a common misconception. Comfort and quality is the foremost concern.
Your initial offers were quite plain, meaning in short basic in color options, the palate has recently expanded, what's the impetus there?
Gareth: Well you cant just make Black and Brown shoes. It was actually that simple, we have tried to do things a bit different
There are certain commonalities and differences in the footwear choices of "streetwear fans" across the globe. Where do you see Pointer fitting in as part of the market? Or really, from you experience what areas have most quickly grasped the concept?
Gareth: First off I don't really know if Pointer is Streetwear, really we are a design lead independent UK based shoe company. Yeah we do come from a skateboard and streetwear background. But I have no idea if that is what we are. I actually have no idea what streetwear is right now. If you were to ask a regular kid on the street in East London what he was into clothing and label wise and where he is spending his money. Nine out of ten times I am guessing it would be New Era Hats, Nike Tracksuit pants, Barbour Quilted Jackets and all black Fila trainers, moving into Stone I Stone Island/ CP Company and other high end labels. So not really what I guess certain people are calling “Streetwear” these days.
Pointer is being bought into by the people who are brave enough to try something different and more importantly who are looking for something a bit off the beaten track. People who started off buying certain well-known sportswear labels and then have come around to buying something new. I guess maybe the people who have worked out that it is now possible to buy footwear the same way you buy T-Shirts, you can now buy smaller less commercial based companies. But lets be honest with here, there is huge brand locality with Footwear brands and people changing usually come in pockets.
Obviously Vans originals have seen a massive resurgence in recent years, and the bell and whistle shoes (outside a retro airmax) have really waned in popularity... have you any answers for why the current crop of athletic footwear is not being incorporated into casual fashion as much as in the past?
Gareth: From what I can work out it that there has a massive throw back to certain styles of footwear, not only athletic but classic too. Honestly I think a lot of people will agree to this. When was the last time you saw a new athletic designed shoe and fell in love with it the same way you did in 92? With regards to the way I feel I have not seen anything come out from the larger athletic brands in the last 8 years and been driven to fly across an ocean to buy it. I am guessing that this has a lot the general aesthetic now being a lot cleaner. Less is more.
It will swing around, these things always do.
I think your point about streetwear is valid. The distinction between the niche market that holds the term as a marketing sub-segment and the common garments worn on road is often somewhat nebulous. Its a similar aesthetic... athletic driven with high-end mixed. The main difference seems to come in 1. cost and 2. what the retail outlets are. That all being said, when launching a brand, particularly in footwear, how do you begin to market and push the product toward the outlets you feel are most appropriate?
Gareth: I agree with the sub-segment statement, but I also feel that sometimes that gets turned on its head. Say what happened with Timberland and Ralph in the early to mid 90's and then with Burberry and Duffer in the UK in the late 90's. I guess things often just happen by mistake and brands get picked up by certain groups of people who the product was not really being aimed at. I think that is really why those groups do pick it up as they are not being force feed it. – ‘aspirational’ buying and all that other board room Marketing rubbish that get thrown around.
Our approach to launching Pointer pretty much was built around the idea that as long as the brand sat with the best mix of product for that certain group/genre we were happy to work with that store, and of course that the stockiest understood Pointer with a view of starting a long term relationship. In other words being able to sell to the Reed Space in NYC, Starcow in Paris, but also sell to Oipolloi in Manchester. It was really finding the correct stores who were looking for something new from a design point of view. But what was also key is that if you are a footwear brand you have to sell to footwear stores and fight it out with the big boys for shelf space (easier said then done). I know that may sound pretty basic but there are a lot of people out there in so called streetwear who cant get there heads around the fact that footwear works in loads of different sects of distribution.
I'm not ashamed to admit the Debaser is my favorite shoe in the Pointer line-up. There is that sense of beauty in the subtle details. What's exciting about pointer is that while you've got that rubber outsole/simple upper vibe, there is actually quite a bit going on with each shoe. And, most importantly, the models are actually new, not rehashing an excepted style. I'm interested in learning a bit about the conceptualization process, and how you move forward with new models.
Gareth: First off thanks for the kind words. I will be honest with you here that is exactly what we are trying to get across to Joe Public. Less is more, but you can still keep a customer friendly Retail Price and do something really unique and different to the rest of the market. Now I am talking shoe design here but also from an Artwork, Marketing and Distribution point of view. It is all about strong ideas and sticking to your guns with regards to what you believe will work and the idea of what you really want to put out into the market place .
The Debaser was one of the most hated and most loved shoes from the start. We are talking across the board here from kids who skate and hang out at Slam City Skates and South Banks, shop owners, trendy Hoxton kids, vintage clothing people, ex kind of casual lads, toy designers, everyone seemed to have a real thought and reaction to that shoe. The people who got what we were trying to do, got it right away. It took other people longer and some people still are really not into it. My feeling is with any form of new design from cars, to buildings to spoons. It takes people a while to get used to what they are looking at. Now take mens footwear, most young men (weather people believe this or not) are really judged on the style and brand of shoe they wear. From Hip Hop kids in New York, Football supporters in Liverpool, Heavy Metal kids in Sydney, Indie college rock kids in Austin and so on. There is serious brand loyalty in Footwear and by buying into certain brands styles means you are aligning yourself with certain groups past and present. In my opinion the type of footwear you are into or buy says more to me then about the Tee Shirt brand you wear.
Okay so taking that all into account. Something like a new Male based footwear line could only be different from all aspects if it was ever going to work, I am talking from a long term point of view. It is like what Erik Brunetti did with Fuct, you might love or hate it but you are still going to remember it because it evokes a response. Now I am not saying what we are doing is like early Fuct or what Erik is doing now. But anything of any worth has to provoke a reaction and a response and this has to carry on doing that as long as the brand in question is around – that’s really the idea behind all the footwear design and Art Direction.. Provoking a reaction, so what would be the best way to do that. Design something new, have a different approach to everything we do. But also make sure what you do looks classic but also has a very new approach.
Since you've mentioned Dr. Martin's and Churches... we should chat about the grand tradition of British footwear. And, formal clothing for that matter. There is an aura of tradition, of quality, of, sort of, understated luxury. Given the sort of diametric nature of your footwear, is there an internal desire to connect to that tradition even if the aims and uses are different?
Gareth: To be honest with you it has but only has from certain aspects. It is not that easy to put into writing, there are thousands of aspects of that understated luxury and craftsmanship that I fell in love with years ago. But saying that I have always had those niggling thoughts... If only that did this or looked like this, if only the pattern was cut this way, why not use all suede instead of full grain leather. I think Ian Paley does that amazingly well with Garb Store, small clever twists and turns.
Now I am not taking anything away from Dr. Martins or Churches but they are what they are. Will always be seen in a certain light, I bet there are people reading this going, "This guy is into Dr. Martins or Churches, what the hell it wrong with him!?". They make amazing product, have some of the best heritage you could ask for. That is why I love them, good idea, being brave design wise and believing it what they do. Now you might not like that but surely you respect that.
If Pointer ever come close to bring seen in the same light, it will make me happiest man on the planet.
Ancillary product. Seems no company can avoid selling more than one thing. You've got some t-shirts. I'd like to hear about that program and how it fits you mission. (not to say i actually view your shirts as ancillary product).
Gareth: You are right everyone makes all sorts of stuff these days. We had always made small runs of Tee Shirts to go along with art booklets that we publish (I guess point proven with regards to people making all sorts of stuff) each season. They were always well received by the media and shop staff and we often had end consumers asking us where they could buy them. So for August we got the first line together. It is the same Pointer Art Collective so Playarea, Nik Taylor, Marcus Oakley, French and Jethro Haynes. I have always hated T-Shirt lines with no concept so the first Pointer T-Shirt brief was all about childhood memories. The line will be for sale in a few of our key accounts. We also have girls T-Shirts.
We really could not come out straight away with T-Shirts as if you a footwear company you really have to prove to everyone you can make footwear first before they are going to trust you with anything else. We do not have any huge plans with regards to a clothing line but you will be seeing a few accessories coming out in FW09.
You've mentioned the obvious difference between selling tees and shoes. Aside from the key elements - more costly design, production, etc - I guess I'm interested in knowing a little about how the footwear business works?
Gareth: I think first off people need to know 2 things about footwear, Lasts and Molds. Footwear is not like making a Tee of a pair of Jeans like we have already discussed. Like Toys and so on there are molds involved so you are working with rubber, glue, heat and so on. The margin for error is a lot higher as there is a lot more that can wrong compared with 16oz cotton, screen printing and labels (yes that often goes go wrong too). Then you have the most important bit about footwear is the Last. This defines the shape of the shoe and really how it fits your foot. So before you have even really started those two things have to really be worked out. Then you get into fabric and leather minimums and so on. It boils down to a lot of really thinking about 2 years ahead. Kind of like skating in rush hour traffic after a few too many beers, you really need to know what is coming. I think a lot of people out there don't really know that it is a long hard road to getting footwear made. There are easier routes, like using stock standard Lasts and Molds, but in my opinion that is kind of cheating. But then also it is quite a costly affair getting involved in new molds and so on.
Design wise. Well I can only really speak for Pointer here as everything is designed in house and we do not out source any footwear design out to any design agencies, like quite a lot of other companies do. I guess then we are really in a privileged position as all the ideas regarding product design come from Rose and I. Well I guess that depends on how you look at it. We see that as a positive as it is still a clear idea that we have had from day one with Pointer. But I guess some people would look at that as a handicap.
But really it is as simple as deciding what you want to do design wise and how you want the brand to be seen and perceived and getting on with it. Then seeing how the market reacts to it and going on from there.
Another thing I found interesting was your comment about "battling it out with the big boys." Something that, you rightly suggest, "streetwear" often simply avoids. I imagine this is actually quite a nerve racking reality?
Gareth: What I find more nerve racking and hard to relate to is the constant "Dude, that brand is selling out!” When people refer to certain clothing brands and have this insane passion about not ruining the so-called Streetwaer scene. What scene are we really talking about here, a group of men dressing to impress other men? Okay that really is what men have always done and will always most likely do. As I don't think any man can stand up and say they are really dressing up for women. Women are way smarter then to judge you on what shoe brand they are buying into, as long as the whole aesthetic works, you don't smell like a trap and are not a deranged rapist they will humor you. I know I have bought into brands and pieces of clothing because I know they are some how perceived as cool or different and will evoke a reaction/conversation and even respect sometimes. Like being in a some sort of secret man club with people who are into the same brands as you. I guess it is a way of me and loads other 20 something/ early 30’s men still seeking some odd type of recognition and respect. Sad but true I know.
Anyway back to the point at hand. So you are having a chat with someone and they are giving you the "punk rock/hip-hop/ underground roots or streetwear, not selling out" team talk. Then in the next breath tell you how amazing this new hype lead, LTD Edition Sportswear Brand model they have just bought on eBay is and that so and so Super Pop Star has been seen wearing it. Now I might be really thick but how do the two relate, not selling out and mainstream pop stars in gossip magazines? Lets not also raise the blindingly obvious point that EBay is the most open distribution outlet on the planet, right? Yeah it has the great feel of any man any time can sell what ever they want to it. But if we are talking about looking after scenes then surely distribution is a key fact, as most scenes are shop focused.
We all know that this always can't be controlled by the big brands. It is all-just a bit to emperor’s new cloths kind of vibe for me.
I think everyone who is reading this will agree that all the "big boys" do have a huge place in this so called Streetwear market/scene as they have been around forever, and were there at the so called beginning. Man I sound like the intro to a Starwars film. So people who bought into those smaller independent T-Shirt/Clothing brands really never had another choose of footwear. As time has moved on so has the footwear side of Streetwear, now we are beginning to see the footwear side of this market evolve. I am not saying Pointer is the answer to that.
In other words what I am saying is that I find it hard to take people seriously who claim to be independent minded and worried about big corporations raping the world of streetwear or any scene for that matter who then from the feet down are standing in a pair of shoes that the company who produces them has tiers in every distribution form golf to race car driving to water polo. You can buy their dead stock for a third of the price at super market chains and that turns over more money then most small countries. Really independent minded and keeping it real? Keeping it way more surreal in my opinion.
